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Author Topic: Brexit  (Read 5171 times)

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Offline E.T.

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #107 on: 22:29 - 15 August, 2019 »
Can't really argue with that too much.

The liars are asking the deceived to stop pretending they know everything and have the debate both sets of liars never had before both sides told us whopping great lies. In that lies the opportunity to repair democracy.


If we ever had a democracy to repair  :dontknow:

Online Readmarx

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #106 on: 21:27 - 15 August, 2019 »
It's simply that an executive does not thwart democratically elected piers to implement it's will on matters of national importance.

You are being coerced to side with a government that is playing games with the electorate that had been lied to (endlessly throughout history unless you are totally ignorant) by both sides as is usual in this current debate and a united opposition of all parties seeking to restrain the action of a few unelected leaders. The liars are asking the deceived to stop pretending they know everything and have the debate both sets of liars never had before both sides told us whopping great lies. In that lies the opportunity to repair democracy

A flexible and unwritten Constitution is set out in the first pages of any law book on tort or jurisprudence or land law precisely because the power the legislate has is to wrest it from the executive

Ultimately you are forced to stand aside or stand your ground; for or against, yes or no, red or white rose, north or south... That is British politics - all or nothing - in times of crisis British politics has no mechanism for negotiation as it reverts to panic and reactionary implementation. Brexit is another opportunity to evolve and use the "flexible and unwritten" Constitution to get through another British f  :censored ck up...

« Last Edit: 21:42 - 15 August, 2019 by Readmarx »
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Offline E.T.

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #105 on: 13:37 - 15 August, 2019 »
Yep that's about the strength of it.

Offline Rob the Nog

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #104 on: 12:05 - 15 August, 2019 »
This is where the definition of democracy can get a bit grey.  We only have a representative democracy and that’s open to flaws.

We vote in MP's as you say, however, the MP's often don’t follow the wishes of their electorate e.g. MP's coming from "leave" constituencies are voting against the deals etc and often expressing a wish to remain, whereas they should be expressly following the wish of their voters to have any semblance of democracy.

Once voted in, the system then pretty much ceases to be democratic at all.

As I mentioned, even the remain / leave vote was only democratic from a point of view of a very blunt question, and the whole process wasn’t thought through, because Cameron never for a minute expected it to go that way and arrogantly went ahead.

For instance, should they have put caveats in the vote, such as we’re not a single country, if any one of the countries votes to remain, should that override the overall vote or at least mean we need to step back and take a look at the situation?  This has happened in that if we leave, Scotland wants to remain, and to do that need to break away from the union and rejoin the EU.

While I wish to leave, my regret would be that this is likely to trigger the end of the Union and be an even bigger mess.  If Scotland left and rejoined the EU, we’d need a hard border with them and they’d be forced to take the Euro.

We'll then need Trump to come over and go on about re-building Hadrian's wall.

Offline E.T.

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #103 on: 11:44 - 15 August, 2019 »


It is democracy that allows this to happen by an unelected government put in place by Conservative party members alone? This is how the one party Chinese, Russian or North Korean states operate...

It is all very weird.  We have no written constitution, it is only MPs that we vote for - the MPs elect/nominate a government on our behalf - the government being the house's representation and f  :censored ck all to do with us really - so we never elect a prime minister (spokesman for the whole house) or a government. The queen (there because she was the heir to some earlier time mafia bully boys) sanctions it by giving her approval.

Is that a good system? No probably not...especially in the case we have now. But everyone knows what the system is (don't they?) 

So its crap to say "we didn't elect the government" in a way that insinuates this is some special case - its not, it is just how it is - No UK government has ever been elected by the voters, and has been and will be until its changed (which I hope it is). The point I'm making that this system is deemed/defined as "democratic" and it is the one that is applied now.. so by definition it IS democratic. It just doesn't happen to meet with your approval, so suddenly its all wrong.

Let me ask this. If it was coming up with a perfect solution/policies that meet YOUR expectations would it still be wrong?



Now, is this the correct version of democracy? should it be proportional representation? Should 16 year olds be able to vote? Says who?.  Should prisoners be allowed to vote as citizens, what about my wife - she's not allowed to vote, but pays tax and contributes to society? How should it work? The point is, the way it is working now is the current "democratic" model and not

Online Readmarx

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #102 on: 21:45 - 14 August, 2019 »
What fear has a government of its position when it cannot put it’s “no deal” position to the HOC or the country?

What is so steadfastly British about the self confidence of a Prime Minister and his cohort desperate to act without sanction?

The idea of leaving with no deal is as much of a failure as a new government deciding to stay in because it cannot negotiate a withdrawal. The hard right which promised “the easiest deal in history” has failed and clings to the charade that leaving “come what may” is in itself of sole importance. This is the case because the hard right never had a plan for Britain and the supporting media assist in reducing the complex needs of a nation to a single goal of leaving.

It is democracy that allows this to happen by an unelected government put in place by Conservative party members alone? This is how the one party Chinese, Russian or North Korean states operate...
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Offline E.T.

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #101 on: 20:06 - 14 August, 2019 »
 I agree it's a total mess, but likewise it's not undemocratic to leave. However fu  :censored ing stupid it is.

The politicians were also elected, so they get to decide (the fact they can't make their minds up is s bit of an issue I agree). So that's democratic too.

So to say leaving is undemocratic is a lie.

Yes no one is going to get what they want... But compromise is also part of the process.


Offline Rob the Nog

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #100 on: 08:23 - 14 August, 2019 »
The problem we have is summed up in Jonathon Pies latest video - even if the majority voted for leaving the EU, the reasons for leaving, and the way we leave among those leave voters will be vastly split.  A large number wouldn't have voted if only no deal was on the table, while some might not have voted if we retain freedom of movement etc etc.  The problem is the democratic process stopped at a very blunt yes/no question.

In the end we're going to all get a Brexit that we probably didn't want, regardless of whether we were a leave or remain voter.

Offline E.T.

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #99 on: 19:57 - 13 August, 2019 »
In what way is no deal Brexit bypassing democracy?

Peeps say out by democratic vote

Online Readmarx

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #98 on: 18:58 - 13 August, 2019 »
And a government conspiring to bypass democracy to assert a solution supported outright by a violent minority will be held accountable by who?
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Offline BashplateAlAssad

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #97 on: 15:38 - 13 August, 2019 »
Labours policy has always been the same, a no-deal means democracy has to have a say otherwise MP's have the say.
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Online Readmarx

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #96 on: 22:46 - 12 August, 2019 »
Tories voting to unseat their own party and Labour MP’s pro-Brexit (as was Jezza before he was firmly wasn’t, was, was not, is and isn’t). An interim coalition to seek an extension to negotiate a deal would be sensible - crashing out is criminal and is a failure and in the words of the shrill and hysterical hard right, treasonous.
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Offline BashplateAlAssad

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #95 on: 11:31 - 12 August, 2019 »
I think Labour has every opportunity to form a government, project fear + No Deal has scared everyone to death and they'll go for anything that's half decent, democratically possible and constitutional. Let's look at the facts, no deal Brexit is on the cards, we're already seeing Johnson's reign as installed PM failing and as it does so he gets more right wing policies in as he sees his support decline and we cannot forget he has a majority of one in the HoC, if DUP don't get their way its a GE, if he upsets more Tory MP's, it's a GE, there's not much option for no GE to be honest.

Last point, it is entirely constitutional for the Opposition to form a government (for however long) if they have a confidence and supply model that holds a majority in parliament.
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Offline E.T.

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #94 on: 06:45 - 10 August, 2019 »
My opinion is....  :stars

Online Readmarx

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Re: Brexit
« Reply #93 on: 21:15 - 9 August, 2019 »
Absolutely, which makes it feel so exciting and bizarre in equal measure. It is such a resolutely odd status. I did nearly piss myself at Labours suggestion they could form a government following a vote of no confidence.
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